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He enlisted and began active duty in the Army Air Force on Dec. 5, 1943. Between May 22, 1944, and Nov. 30, 1944, he flew 35 combat missions over Germany, Northern France, and Normandy as a pilot of B-24s and B-17s. He was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross, the Air Force's highest medal for bravery, on Oct. 17,1944. He also was awarded the Air Medal with four Oak Leaf Clusters on Nov. 10, 1944.

I'm not terribly sad, don't get me wrong. He lived a long and good life.

It just makes me think about war heroes. His service seems so brave to me.

My condolences, Tizzie.

That war certainly seems nobler from here. I do think that some of the machinations that led to the US involvement may have been suspect, but in the final analysis it seems to have been just.

Tizzie, I'm sorry. He sounds like he was a pretty amazing individual.

I'm sorry to hear that, Tizzie. He sounds like quite the distinguished individual. That's a LOT of decorations -- and the DFC is indeed impressive.

Thanks, you sweeties.

I posted it partly in tribute, yes, but partly because somehow - to me at least - that distant war sprang from more "honorable" intentions, and (in contrast to current events) it makes me feel sentimental rather than pissed off.

But maybe I'm just fooling myself. Can we pick and choose which wars are "good"?

That war was just and neccessary. In fact, to not get involved would've been the greater wrong. Someday, I hope I have an occasion to rise to in as exemplary a manner has he did.

Well, though I'm a lefty, I'm not a complete pacifist. (Several Hell's Kitchen parking meters will attest to that.) I think it's a terrible thing, but war can sometimes be the best option, and can sometimes save lives.

However, our current boondoggle was started for obscure and spurious reasons, and under false pretenses.

(I can rant about this for much longer, but hey, it's lunchtime.)

That war was just and neccessary.

I agree that in retrospect the war against the Nazis was just from a humanitarian point of view, but I believe that Pearl Harbor could have been avoided and quite likely was known about beforehand by the government at the time.

I wonder, with the US's crazy, anti-human policies since, if WWII wasn't the beginning of the dark road we're on now, and if the end of isolationism is not to blame. Of course, WWII had its roots in the total fuckup that was treaty of versailles, so it goes back before that.

Don't mean to offend anyone here. Just kind of thinking out loud.

That first line should be in italics, btw.

Oh, I wasn't arguing with you, kaf. In fact you're correct. Just free associating on my own.

Tiz sorry to hear about your Uncle, my condolences go out to you & your family.

My husband was born in Britain in 1944. He says that if it were not for the US troops, especially the Air Force, all of Europe would be speaking German now. We went to the museum at Wright Patterson in Dayton and he knew every plane by heart, how far it flew, what sort of guns it carried - the kind of thing a little boy would have memorized about his idols.

I just can't imagine a little Iraqi boy in 2063 feeling the same way.

and that's not meant to offend either, please.

Especially you, Thom - I don't discredit your brother's efforts! The soldiers do what they have to do, under the worst of circumstances.

My mom would certainly have agreed, Tizzie. She was born in London in 41, raised there during the Blitz.

I'm sorry for your loss, Tizzie. He sounds like he was a good and honorable man, a man who knew duty and did not shirk it, and that's all anyone can ask of anyone else in this world.

I'm very sorry, Tizzie. As you know, I lost my grandfather last month. He was also a WWII vet, so I wrestled with some of these same issues. My conclusion:

"Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, contrary to what you have just seen, war is neither glamorous nor fun. There are no winners, only losers. There are no good wars, with the following exceptions: The American Revolution, World War II, and The Star Wars Trilogy."
- Bart Simpson -

My (sole remaining) grandfather also flew over Europe in WWII (as a radioman), but wasn't lucky enough to fly 35 missions. I think he flew fewer than ten before his B-17 was shot down and he was captured by the Germans.

He doesn't talk about it, though.

I used to work with a man who had been an airforce gunner in WWII. He was a sterling silver Gentleman, of the kind they don't make anymore, and he knew how to wear a hat. He said he had fond memories of the flesh-pots of Paris.

My wife's father was an Army mechanic, who survived the Battle of the Bulge because he was too valuable at fixing jeeps to send to the front lines.

I never got to meet him; he died many years later (but before I met my wife) of a heart attack. Everyone in the family assures me that he would've liked me, though, primarily because he also loved watching football and drinking beer. He didn't talk about the war much, either.

Sorry for your uncle, tizzie.

May we never need another good war, or be drawn into another bad one.

This has been a great, but very unexpected and likely unprecedented thread.

My one surviving grandparent fought in WWII and Korea and has since contracted diabetes, had a quintiple bypass, four strokes, and a hip replacement. He's far beyond his death bed, but he's doing well all things considered.

I like this place for it's frivolity, and this thread doesn't quite fit in (just to be honest) but my condolences are with you, Tizz.

I knew that, ufez my friend, and it was sort of an experiment on my part to see what happened.

Now it's your turn! Post something frivolous!

The only person in my family, that I know of, who has served in the military was my old man, who was drafted, and did a non-combatant tour of duty in Vietnam. He spent most of his time guarding ammo dumps in Qui Nhon in 65-66. The other side of the family didn't arrive in the US until 1953, and beyond my dad's grandparents our family history gets a little hazy.

Frivolous, you say?

I recently bought cufflinks! To go with my new suit! (go to page 12-13)

My most sincere apologies to the poor bastards and bastardettes here who've already heard me expound at extreme length on this subject in recent days. I'm just significantly jacked. This suit is the best combination of butter and armor.

Do clothes make the man?
No, the man is made by his
experience, but

as he sallies like
a grognard, fountain pen for
pike, a simple suit

of worsted wool, cut
to fit, crisp and classical,
can deflect bullets.

page 12-13 of the Autumn 2003 Men's catalog, that is. Darn zippy-ass shopping carts.

Spiffy.

I refuse to wear a suit. They make me look like a plainclothes cop.

as opposed to an unemployed lumberjack on a bender? :D

Sorry for being a bit snarly last night. Some stupid drunk assholes decided it would be a good idea to get in a pretty big fight at the bar I was at last night, ruining all the good times. Shit like that always puts me in a foul mood.

Those are some pretty sweet links though, Fes. I wouldn't call $8.50 frivolous though.

And when was the last time we only had one new thread in a whole week anyways? Someone post something! Here, I'll find you a picture. There we go.

btw Fes, my St. Louie trip has been postponed a week. I smell trouble. In the good way.

The Autumn II catalog? The two-button Italian job?

The one that makes you look like Jay Gatsby himself?

I've never seen such beautiful shirts before.

Ach. Didn't mean to advertise the price. It was not an insignificant bite to the Fesly budget. But worth it.

speaking of lumberjacks, I was at my local diner the other night, and on the breakfast page was an item labeled simply "Lumberjack."

Now, I know they meant a "Lumberjack Breakfast" but I still couldn't help picturing Paul Bunyan roasting on a spit in the back room.

two eggs any way, woodchips, and a side of blue ox?

MMmmm, ox. The other blue meat.

Fes, my friend, ya gotta spend money to make money.

When I started working here, I was driving a $500 and wearing a pair of obscenely expensive Bruno Magli loafers. Soon, the truck broke down and I had to abandon it on the exit ramp.

Confuscious say: Woman who spend more money on shoes than on truck winds up walking.

$500 truck. It would have made more sense if I'd said "truck."

That's here and here that I've read about people getting all exercised over some expensive article of clothing. Will someone please explain the attraction to me? I say this as someone who's most expensive pieces of clothing were a $100ish pair of Dexter boots and a $125 dollar off-the-rack-at-JC Penney sport jacket that I wear to weddings and funerals. To me it seems weird when the money could be better spent on beer and cheesesteaks.

Man. You can't beat the feel of really well made clothes. You only get to feel the cheesesteak for a couple of hours.

Or is that gross?

I'll join Fes in the appreciation of the duds.

Yes, but for the price of one suit, I can buy hundreds of cheesesteaks and beers. And they never go out of fashion.

Plus, putting a suit on me would be like putting a silk hat on a workhorse, aesthetically speaking.

It's not the price, jon. That's a symptom, and often as not a little embarrassing (although I might observe that

There are also those that feel that clothing has a certain aspect of art to it. I know where you're coming from, I was of similar mind for a long time. But once I got round to it, good clothes really do make a difference. After all, a workhorse with a silk hat, well, it ain't a workhorse anymore, is it? It's a workhorse with a damn fine hat.

Yes, but then there's all the attendant maintenance costs, like dry cleaning, and accessories and shit. Plus all the work, daily showering and shaving, nail clipping, haircuts, spill avoidance. Ye gods, what's the payoff.

And it's odd cause my old man is a bigger clotheshorse than fes, even though one of his jobs is at Penny's. How he spawned me I'll never know.

I think, deep down, Jon wants a new Calvin Klein wardrobe.

Admit it!

But hell, I have comfy cheap clothes too, including numerous soccer jerseys one of which the wife calls "the ugly shirt", and that I threaten to don on occasion when she gets particularly obstreperous.

Also, I am wearing dockers and a shirt from the Gap, so I cannot be relied upon as an arbiter of fashion goodness.

Yes, yes. I want to be fartin' in silk.

On occasion people make it sound appealing, but truth be told, I'd feel silly.

And, I'm wearing the same thing I wear every day. Chucks, Levi's. T-Shirt (Buddy Bradley, today) and my beloved blue plaid flannel.

Hey, pricey clothes and cheesesteaks aren't mutually exclusive. I buy both, pretty much to my heart's (and arteries') content.

As for my sunglasses, I know that much of what I'm paying for is the notoriety of the brand. It's a bit indefensible, and I readily admit it.

But when it comes to buying a suit, the more you pay, the more you get. The quality, the cut, the longevity, etc, is truly unparalleled. If the only occasion you plan on wearing a suit involves you as the guest of honor in a pine box, Brooks Brothers isn't for you. But speaking for those of us who occasionally aspire to stuffed shirt status or label-whore wankerdom, I slide into something fancy and I'm all Halle Berry-d out, groaning "Make me FEEEEL GOOOOOD" from the dressing room.

Thank you for crystallizing my thoughts, Ms. Cowboy.

I slide into something fancy and I'm all Halle Berry-d out, groaning "Make me FEEEEL GOOOOOD" from the dressing room.

Ha!

Hahaha.

Jon, you know how you feel in that getup? Confident, competent, like 'yourself'? Many people feel the same way in a great suit, or a pair of prada shades, or whatever. Knowing you look really good, as the always lovely Cowboy Sally points out, makes you feel good - and when you feel good, you project that confidence. People pick up on that, and react accordingly.

Actually, I never feel confident, but that's beside the point. I just want clothes I can comfortably sleep in a dumpster without damaging. I'd like to say it's style, but I'm just basically a slob, so it comes down to damage control, my freinds. (ie, can I spill beer on this without blowing a weeks pay).

What about when someone puts a beer and a Zinger in front of you and says "I bet you can't finish that"?

I bet you're plenty confident then.

But really, it's like Fes said, whatever clothes make you feel good. Whatever music, whatever movies, whatever erotic love oils.

Suits? People wear suits? I've seen them on racks and stuff, I just didn't realise people had to wear them.

Spend money on boots. Nice, leather, light beige, probably not great in snow but nevertheless boots. There's this really nice camel colour pair I saw at.....uh, I'm getting off-topic.

I'll put in money for basics but that's about it. Otherwise it has to come with a sale tag. And of course if I need to, there's always the option of getting a new boyfriend so I have access to the old jeans and sweatshirts.

Oh, I don't begrudge any of you, your sartorial orgasms, I was just curious more than anything else. But hey, I gotta job where I can wear pretty much anything I want, and since I'm (a)po' and (b) not single, there's no reason for me to show any fashion or grooming initaitives.

Mmm. zingers and beer.

*dialing Queer Eye For The Straight Guy*

"Gents, I got one you're just going to LOVE..."

For some reason, I'm reminded of "Folk Song" by Bongwater:
And it's time we find a way to cope, a way to findsome hope, for some it's the Bible or Buddha or Mohammed or Krishna or cheesecake or bourbon or the Butthole Surfers or Giorgio Armani or Romeo Gigli...

Y'know, whatever makes you happy.

Unless what makes you happy is fondling zoo animals.

As Jean-Luc Picard said "The line must be drawn here!"

Oh, I can see when I'm not welcome.

::picks up marmoset, heads for door::

Just to be totally clear here:

Bring your own marmoset: cool
Fondling the zoo marmoset: not cool

No reason to avoid the sales. I recently picked up some Lacoste dress shirts, in a nice selection of colors, for $15 apiece. I've gotten Countess Mara ties for $4 at Burlington Coat Factory. Po and not single doesn't mean squat. Sure, you have to start with the basics first: in jon's case, a couple dress shirts in white, blue, pink, yellow. A half dozen ties. A blue blazer. Cut wool trousers in blue, grey, olive. black loafers, brown wingtips. $300-400, maybe less, for the lot. The thing is, you can mix and match all that stuff into a HUGE variety of combinations.

Don't dress for the job you *have*, my friend - dress for the job you want. I got pointed out at our company annual meeting once for having a dimple in my tie when everyone else (but the CEO) was wearing khakis and polos. I was a lowly marketing hack at the time, but you know what? The next year: promoted. I'm not saying that it was the tie thing that got me the job, but it didn't hurt, man, to get paraded as a snappy mutha in front of the entire management tier of the company.

*slides wiggling Gucci marmoset travel bag under table*

a couple dress shirts in white, blue, pink, yellow

And it is here that we part ways. I cannae do the pink or yellow shirts. Or those ones with the white collar and blue or pink shirt like Larry King wears?

And it's true, I don't wear suit to work. But I enjoy wearing one for a nice night out.

The amount of money you just mentioned is a weeks salary after taxes for me, so that settles it. Bury my ass in flannel and denim!

And if you keep fondling that marmoset, you'll go blind. Fondle this tree frog, instead.

I don't like those blue-shirt white-collar jobs either. They're supposed to mimic the victorian detachable collars, but they just look weaselly. Especially, as Larry wears them, with braces.

But don't discount pink and yellow, Kaf. Pink is fantastic for pale white guys, the pale yellows (somtimes called "ecru" or "salt") look great with browns and olives, which are autumn mainstays.

Don't neglect stripes and windowpanes either. I have a pink windowpane shirt where the panes are gray, I wear a grey and purple striped rep tie and grey trousers/jacket, it looks damn good.

Bury my ass in flannel and denim!

Sheee-it. You trying to tell me you don't pay $40-$50 for a pair of Levis?

And it's true, I don't wear suit to work.

Me neither! But after five days a week of wearing the PVC, the latex, the leather, the restraints...it's like, all I wanna do is kick back on Friday and slip on some wool gabardine.

You guys know what I'm talkin' about, right?

Word.

I dunno the price I usually go with Lisa to buy em when the ones I have become too frayed to wear in public. The only articles I personally choose are the t-shirts.

Alright dude, ease into it. Next time you and Pips go out for jeans, pick up some flat front khakis instead. Same general price. See what happens.

No, sadly, it is my duty to uphold the record geek tradition of poor grooming, alcohlism and lack of social graces.

Someone must carry on, dammit!

Trust me, there will be plenty to fill the void.

The cool part about dressing nicely is that you can STILL be an alcoholic and have poor social graces. You'll just look a lot better while you are.

Mom!

Untie fes, and stop hanging out my website.

Next time you and Pips go out for jeans, pick up some flat front khakis instead.

Khakis?!?!

*hisses, brandishes cross, strings garlic cloves around*

Mention "polo shirts" and I call in the pick-ax 'n torch weilding fashionista mob.

Damn dirty khakis distracted me from my original purpose:

*hugs tizzie*

Thanks, kimmy.

you gotta start slow, kimmy! I put jon in a Zegna suit right off the bat, he'll explode. Baby steps!

Thanks for the effort fes, but sartorially speaking, as a wise man once said, "you can't polish a turd."

If it's baby steps you're after, I vote for a pair of snug jeans. You fellers Statside all wear your jeans entirely too baggy in the bum area.

Mmmm. Tight jeans...*drools*

'Scuse me for just a sec....

I'm with romakimmy on this one. Tighter trousers for all, dammit! As Joe Strummer said, Like trousers, like mind.

I'm already wearing tight trousers.

Jonmc, fashion plate. HaHaha!

*why my Dark Lords WHY wouldst thou curse me with a reportedly "flat-ish" ass? Ah, the ungentle ministrations of cruel, cruel fate...*

*sulks*

Ugh. I look bad in jeans, in khakis, in suits (especially in suits. Be nice to us rumpled, inconveniently-shaped guys!

Strange as it may seem, I *love* wearing a tux. But opportunities to do so don't come very often, unless I can finally bag that headwaiter job.

"flatish-asses" are the number one reason why baggy pants are a severe no-no. Tight jeans add definition.

Unless your ass is completely concave, in which case you could have a great career as a human salad bowl.

Same goes for shirts- tight t-shirts are good.

Feeling sort of squrimy. Still drooling. This is not an attractive look.

not concave, just "a little flat-ish" according to some of the women in my office. On the other hand, some others have observed that it's just fine. I prefer to think of it has having the long lean muscle tone of a runner or, perhaps, a soccer player :) I dunno, though. 35 has a way of looking at tight pants with some measure of trepidation.

Now, tight t-shirts I got. What I lack in ass I make up for in shoulders.

you could have a great career as a human salad bowl.

Easy with those carrots, mister. I don't know you that well. And all we have today is ranch dressing. But it's homemade...?

...I prefer to think of it has having the long lean muscle tone of a runner or, perhaps, a soccer player...Now, tight t-shirts I got. What I lack in ass I make up for in shoulders.

Tease. :-P

Just desserts for someone whose own lovely ass is 100% legal. Complete with action photo.

*arches eyebrow*

*pours glass of Gattinara, drinks*

It's missing... something.

yeesh, y'all talk much?

Since I got laid off last year, I've only worn a collared shirt three times, and a suit once. And a tuxedo, once. I've the opposite problem from Fes - bubble butt from hell, so jeans that fit my waist, uh, let's just say they don't fit my butt.

Since when is it ok for guys to wear tight stuff? I thought that went out in the '70's (coach's shorts) except for those who still are in the 70's.

Guys wearing tight stuff is the reason why I live in Italy. Pornographic boy-bum eyecandy as far as the eye can see.

It also lends an interesting aspect to my confession-as-entertainment jaunts to the the Vatican:

"Forgive me Father, for I have sinned. I cannot stop lusting after boys' bums in tight jeans."

"Me t...uh...3 Hail Mary's. Go in peace."

"But I'm not done."

"Fuck the Hail Mary's - JUST GO IN PEACE."

Hey Fes, notsnot, you all down for happy hour on Friday, October 10th? I'm going out that night with a friend from Baylor, but there should be some time for uFeztivities before that.

You know what, ufez, I might just be able to do that. 5ish, we talking? Whereabouts in town are you going to be?

I'm game. Fes, do we need to practice drinking before that time? ;)

I think we might. Sorry I haven't replied to your email, I've been chasing my ass around the office today. I fucked something up, my detractors came out of the woodwork to gloat, my boss delivered me the obligatory chew, and I'm busily alternating between fartass mea culpas and tight-lipped grin-and-take-its. Helluva day. When/where?

Anytime's fine, but I'll probably have to split by about 6:30 or 7:00. We're staying in the new Hampton Inn downtown (by the Arch). I don't know anything as far as hanging in St. Louie, so you all choose and lemme know how to get there. If Fes will play camera boy, I'll bring shout-out material.

The arch is about 6 blocks from my office, and there are lots of places downtown or near downtown. LaClede's Landing (like Deep Ellum) is right there. That'd probably be the best spot, lots of convivial bars. Notsnot, would something like that work for you?

As long as I don't have to pay a cover....

But yeah, that works.

So, are teh shoutouts gonna be a fashion show? Fes as brooks-brothers'ed out, vs Snot in full jonmc mode?

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