9622.net

Vidiot and I were discussing the other day that if this idiot gets re-elected in November, it's time to pack our bags. Where on earth can we go?

As stavrosthewonderchicken said so eloquently over on the Blue, "America is nostril deep in a lake of runny shit."

Where can we go? Will Portugal welcome us? Canada? A tropical island?

There's tons of monkeys here in India. I'm fairly sure they wouldn't notice a few more ... and the dirt is cheap too. Erm. I mean it's dirt cheap. Hell, you probably know exactly what I mean.

I don't care who get's elected, I ain't leavin'. I've lived through 3 years of Nixon, 3 years of Ford, 4 years of Carter, 8 years of Reagan, 4 years of Poppa Bush, and 8 years of Clinton. And my life has more or less remained the same through all of it. Shrub don't scare me none. Besides, there's still no place I'd rather live. Where'm I gonna go? France? They eat frogs and don't bathe. England? We fought a war to get away from those teabags. Canada? All they got is hockey and second hand American culture. Latin America? I already live in New York. Portugal? It dosen't really exist. I'll stay here in the land of Ho-Ho's, Playboy amd RC Cola, thankyouverymuch.

*walks away singing "God Bless America"*

Now, wait a second. The beauty of American political power is that it is inherently temporal - even if Bush gets re-elected (with the Abu Gahraib thing still roiling, I wonder, but Kerry still has to get off his ass ASAP, imo), you know with certainty that, come January 2008, he will be gone from the political landscape forever. One president's four-year term is no reason to abandon the country of your birth. If anything, one can make the point that it is during these times that America needs you the most.

However, if I *had* to leave, I would pick Italy: a friendly and fun-loving people; a language like poetry on the ear, and dark-haired, dark-eyed girls to speak it; a glorious and fascinating history; food and wine the match of which the rest of the world can only attempt; the native home of Ermenegildo Zegna and Gianni Versace; and reigning over the whole of it, tiny brightstar signorina Romakimmy, for whom I would wade thigh-deep in the surf off Cinqeterre, wresting langoustines and turbot from the sea, to amble back to her (stopping only at the wineshop for a bottle to accompany them) and cook them with rice and saffron, my bare feet making sandpaper sounds against the slate of the floor as the skitter and splay, venting the schoolboy nervousness I try desperately to keep from my eyes and I steal looks across the table as she eats.

Sorry, what was the question? Oh, right, emigration. Definitely Italy. This seems to be an exhaustive resource for those considering emigration. But I will stay, I think, unless shooting starts. America may be at a popularity low right now, but I believe our fortunes will rise again. History shows that, after times of trouble, American tolerance, freedom and success returns stronger than ever, and I believe that will be the case again.

and in sadder news...

What a shame. He was one funny motherfucker.

Ah, fes, as a first generation Italian-American, I feel it is my duty to set you straight.

if I *had* to leave, I would pick Italy: a friendly and fun-loving people; a language like poetry on the ear,

You've obviously never argued with my grandparents. More like an icepick in the ear. Which is another thing my people are fond of.

and dark-haired, dark-eyed girls to speak it; a glorious and fascinating history;

I can sell you a piece of our history. Here's an italian war rifle, never been shot, only dropped once. And those dark-haired dark-eyed girls grow up to be women in black dresses who put curses on you in your sleep. And who suffocate you when they hug you and kiss you without putting their teeth in.

Nobody's going nowhere.

Not so sad: King had a long, good life making people laugh and making himself wealthy doing it. He passed with a smile on his face, I'll bet.

And au contraire, johnny mac! I grew up in an Italian neighborhood in Chicago, a translucent Scotch-German ghost in a rollick of screaming first-generationers talking louder with their hands than with their yaps, mafia-dons-in-training gamely wrapping Chevy Berlinettas around white sportsjackets around black t-shirts, and black-cossetted matrons who peeled off sour looks like dollar bills from from a roll - this is *charm*, jon. There's nothing like the feeling of having your best friend's grandma (dressed in black, built like a 19th century fireplug, only a nodding acquaintance with the King's English), actually clunk yours and his heads together in Moe-like fashion for petty hood hooliganry.

And Italia's failed fascisti coupled with military ambivalence only highlights it's wonderfully zen-like schizophrenia.

Charm?

My nonna recently advised my pregnant sister not to wear a necklace because it would make the baby come out tangled in the umbillical cord. When I asked how old a neighbor of theirs was, my nonno slammed the table with his palm and answered "Iz time to die!" They also had the mayor of their village in Lombardy to visit at the aluminum sided pied a terre up in the Green Mountains, where we all got stoonatz on anisette. Hizzoner was later indicted for bribery back in the old country.

So I sat again, charm?

When I asked how old a neighbor of theirs was, my nonno slammed the table with his palm and answered "Iz time to die!"

Gold-plated charm, my friend.

Perhaps my view of this is colored by the rather pallid sort of homelife we Pennsylvania Dutch types have. as my brother once said concerning our upbringing: "It was a lot like being in UN - everyone has a place to sit, everyone tries to be very polite and mind their own business, but no one speaks the same language and they all go somewhere else at night."

Greener grass, ad infinitum. There were times when I was a kid that I pretended to be Italian. My genetic WASPiness ultimately won out... but a man can dream of Cinqeterre langoustines, si?

There were times when I was a kid that I pretended to be Italian. My genetic WASPiness ultimately won out...

Well, that's certainly understandable. My mom, despite the woppy origins illustrated above, would have you believe she was raised on a yacht by Martha Stewart.This has the side effect of making her a lousy cook. But in moments of excitement it comes out.Although we're talking about rural New England Eye-Talians here. Sort of Fellini meets Green Acres happening.

I can also assure you that their antics are sedate compared to what I know of the Irish wing of the family.

One president's four-year term is no reason to abandon the country of your birth.

Fes, I don't think of it as abandoning anything. It's not about a cum-stained dress this time. It's about atrocities in an unjust war. Are we tacitly complicit if we stay?

(sorry to be serious!)

I tend to think of Kentucky as being sort of other-worldly anyway, but even here i don't feel distant enough from this mess.

Fellini meets Green Acres - that sounds like a movie I'd have to see!

Walrus! Good to see you swing through, traveler!

Are we tacitly complicit if we stay?

No. We didn't abuse those prisoners. Those MP's and their superiors did. Me and you didn't start this war, Bush and his cronies did. I don't believe in collective guilt. It's like a secular humanist variation on original sin.

It's about atrocities in an unjust war. Are we tacitly complicit if we stay?

Well, the unjust aspect may be debated, and as atrocities go these latest revelations, while repugnant, sort of pale in comparison to the sorts of atrocities perpetrated elsewhere. It is because we, and the perpetrators, are Americans - devoted as we are to the rule of law, to democracy, to being the imperturbable beat-cop in a world of switchblade-wielding miscreants - that these seem to take on, imo, a greater horror. We hold ourselves to higher standards, and gladly so.

But I don't think we as a society are tacitly complicit, and I don't think the rest of the world sees us that way, either. Some noodges, surely, will paint all of us with a brush dipped in digital images from Abu Gahraib, but they will be the minority. And, for all Bush's faults (and even I must admit they are becoming legion), trying those guards publicly, and allowing the Arab press unfettered access to the court, will go a long way toward ensuring the rest of the world that this series of incidents was aberration, not rule.

The answer for we commoners is to stay and fight against such nonsense with our voices and votes, not skedaddle out the gunwales of a listing ship.

Plus, we'd miss you, Tiz.

I don't believe in collective guilt. It's like a secular humanist variation on original sin.

Good point, jon. I think my 9 years of catholic school are showing.

I heard a senator from Georgia commenting on Abu Ghraib (sp?) as the "psychological Pearl Harbor" and he protested "Hey, what about 9/11 and the mercenaries in Falujah?"

Yes, those things were bad, but they were not done in my name. This prisoner torture is being done by Americans, and it makes me not want to be one of them.

In fact, this even makes my German Shepherd want to be a Lhasa Apso.

I'm not sure those are Shepherds, Tizzie; from what I understand, the standard MP working dog these days is the Belgian Malinois.

What a relief, Fes! I'll tell Shadow when I get home.

Hey, I see Dong's back, and he wants to move to Canada too. Good. Now if only he'd get that horrible damn picture off his blog.

You're only upset by that picture because you don't know just how good those things taste.

Shadow! Bite that man!

Hey, I see Dong's back

Did anyone else notice that our own D. Resin announced on his weblog that has written a book?

I know! I thought he was kidding, too! But that cracker actually wrote a book, and it's being published by Warner Brothers.

I think serious congratulations are in order.

Yes, those things were bad, but they were not done in my name.

But, by that logic, every Japanese person should feel shame for Pearl Harbor, every Russian for pogroms, and every Mongolian for Genghis Khan. That sort of collective blame-gaming is firstly, the beginnings of bigotry, and two, does nothing but debilitate people with pointless guilt.

As for moving out of the country because of Bush...isn't that like saying to the resident of a badneighborhood who complains about crime: "Hey, why don't you just move?"

And congrats on the book, dongstah. I assume you'll be journeying to the Apple for public appearances and shit. Me and vidiot can put on cheap suits and headsets and stand next to you pretending to be bodyguards.

he he he heh, Dong's last name is Resin, an author’s name to surly stick. Congratulations Dong, can’t wait to read it, maybe it will explain to me her TV show.

*adds to wish list*

sooo, Mr. Resin, if we mail you our copy of the book, will you sign it and add an appropriately pithy witticism?

Seriously, congrats Dongy.

For the last ten minutes, I've been trying to figure out how he faked that Amazon page.

I give up. It must be real.

WoooHOOO dong resin!!

Fes - You silver tongued devil you. Pay no attention to that silly Pocky-addicted New Yorker. (I tease, jonmc. In reality i am jealous of your close proximity to endless supplies of Dr Pepper and Cool Ranch Doritos)

Tiz & Vidiot - If you're serious, no matter where you pick will be a long slog of red tape in your quest for residence. Without knowing particulars, I vaguely remember Tizzie being married to a UK gent, which might give you a slightly easier in. Big emphasis on slightly. You might also look into ancestry and whether you can get a second passport/right to abode etc that way, Ireland and Italy being the easiest EU countries to get a passport from.

Of course, this is a mainly EU viewpoint. YMMV.

Dong's book - It's times like these when I wish I owned a credit card, dammit.

Actually, romakimmy, I've had precious little pocky in the past six months. I've moved on to Valomilk, Goo Goo Supremes, and Twin Bings.

Pocky was merely a gateway drug, apparently.

Also, the Japanese counterwoman at the deli is today sporting a "Welcome to America, Now Speak English!" t-shirt.

My head hurts.

I should state that I'm not seriously thinking of leaving America. I like New York too much. But I hope to God that Bush doesn't get re-elected, because I'm not sure I can stand to live in that America. I guess I'll burn that bridge when I come to it.

And Fes, beware of an icepick in the ear. I like Cinque Terre langoustines, too -- some of the best seafood I've ever had in my life was in Vernazza -- and I like romakimmy as well.

In other news, Jonmc likes candy.

Oddly enough, tizzie, I had this very same discussion with a close friend. He and I made a list of all the countries we'd willingly live in and the likelihood of being able to immigrate there. Pretty much 15-love.

Even Canada doesn't want us, and they're *practically* part of the US anyhow! (I kid.)

I feel terribly guilty about what has happened at Abu Gahraib. It's not collective blame-gaming; it's being human. What's the alternative? Relax and enjoy it? I mean, if it's inevitable, right?

I don't want to stay here if this is the sort of behavior the US condones. Additionally, I don't want to stay here if the administration a) further negates my reproductive rights b) continues to push its shameful education agenda and c) drives the economy deeper into the shithole.

(Now, whether I could afford to leave is a whole 'nother question. Don't start planning my going away party just yet.)

As for moving out of the country because of Bush...isn't that like saying to the resident of a badneighborhood who complains about crime: "Hey, why don't you just move?" Well, the corrollary there is to effect change from within, right? How can we do that when we can't even get every able-bodied American to go out and vote?

OK, enough of my ranting. The piss in my cornflakes has gotten cold; I must re-microwave.

Oh, and Helping Hands monkey rocks the mic!

Nice pompadour on that monkey, Dana!

The Vietnam war sent many wonderful people across the border to Canada, a large number of which settled in Toronto (my home). This injection has really improved the gene pool, so I say 'come on up, Wonderful Monkeys! Flee the Moron! Free Health care! Tuques! Tim Hortons! The world's tallest free-standing structure! Uh... moose.. trees.. er.. ducks...a U in colour. Like, I dunno, eh? But it's a beauty place to live, eh?"

But REALLY FREAKIN' COLD.

On the other hand, the domestic beer is way better.

I feel terribly guilty about what has happened at Abu Gahraib. It's not collective blame-gaming; it's being human. What's the alternative? Relax and enjoy it? I mean, if it's inevitable, right?

No, but I only believe in feeling guilt for what I've done wrong, not what "my people," have done. By that logic, every Saudi should feel guilt for 9/11, which is patently ridiculous. The blame for Abu Gahraib lays with the MP's themselves and the superiors who condoned/ordered it. And this is merely the latest pelvic thrust in a massive clusterfuck that began back during the Reagan years and is far more complex than either the hawks or the doves want to admit.

The Vietnam war sent many wonderful people across the border to Canada

It also sent many wonderful people like my dad, some uncles and cousins, and numerous freinds to Vietnam.

When I was younger, I had thought they were naive or deluded, but as I've gotten older, I've grown to respect them, and what they did, a lot. And I realize this will be an unpopular sentiment here, I respect them more than I respect most of the protestors of the time (who I also realize were, for the most part, doing what they felt they had to do, as well).

I'm not saying "my country, right or wrong," but it is still my country. Period.

In all honesty, I don't think I'm going anywhere. My hubby would like to retire to his old home in the UK but we have too many animals who would not be allowed in to the country because they've had rabies shots.

Talking about leaving just gives me something to think about besides how horrid those pictures make me feel.

What else can we do??

It's pretty goddamn frustrating that the poll numbers are exactly where they were three and a half years ago. Yep...all that shit that the current administration has pulled simply doesn't matter to the electorate at large. And if Bush is re-elected, just think of what he'll try to do, not having to worry about facing the voters again.

Politics, bolloticks.

Where is home for you? What does "home" mean to you?

For all you aspiring ex-pats out there, I'll let you in on the super secret formula for determining where "home" should be. It's foolproof.

Find a place. Be enchanted by its wares. Become repulsed by its flaws. Find its hidden dining spots and the most obnoxious corrupt civil servant you will ever have to deal with in your life. Get your highs, your lows and everything in between, enough to have a nice little treasure chest full of memories for a rainy day with the grandkids.

Now leave that place.

Do you miss it? Is it an almost physical ache residing in your stomach? Do you pine for it like a lost lover? Do you even miss that fucking obnoxious corrupt civil servant? Do you preface a majority of your sentences with "In Foo...

Go back. As you land on the tarmac, chug past the outer boundaries, take the last exit from the highway, what is the first thing that crosses your mind?

If it's along the lines of "Thank God I'm home", well congratulations, you've found Home. Now go move heaven and hell to live there.

Because that's what we're talking about here folks. Home. Not "my country" or "your country" or "that country." You will always be known as an American (if not the American) no matter where you live. That little blue eagle embossed passport will ensure that, even if your accent eventually doesn't. Even if you take the ultimate step of renouncing your US passort.

/This semi-coherent rant brought to you by your friendly neighbourhood American ex-pat, 4 hours of sleep, and last night's dinner unpleasantly tainted by my best friend's obnoxious boyfriend and this guy

He seems jolly.

I'm with Fes and Jon. This will change. Maybe not in November, but it will eventually change.

In other news. I'm itching to make a mix cd. The next five people that ask me for one in this thread, get one.

Unless you're a comment spammer. Then I'll just send you a box of steamy crap.

I'll take one! And trade you one of my own!

I'm almost shamedd to say, but I cheated on you all, mix-wise, at that other monkeysite.

Swapinistrator got to swapinistratate, baby. As per the Frog and the Scorpion.

Just to pop in and add my .02 -- sort of along the same lines as romakimmy. Somewhere deep in my subconscious I'm sure there's a prioritized list of why I choose to live where I do. That list almomst certainly includes things like: proximity to family and friends; job opportunities; quality of public education; community character; access to good restaurants; natural beauty, etc. It's quite possible that somewhere down the list there are broader considerations: tax rates; city services; access to airports.

Way the hell down the list you might find "my country's international political and military decisions."

What is important to me is living near the people I love in a place that makes me comfortable, and provides me and my family with opportunities to live a fulfilling life. It wouldn't matter if the President is George Bush or Ralph Nader (two people for whom I have approximately equal respect). It makes no sense to make my family suffer just to make some esoteric "point" (to whom?) about something over which I have no control.

I like the U.S. It's a place I want my kids to grow up, because I know they have the freedom and choice to live the lives of their choosing. I also trust the political system -- I like that we have a bloodless revolution every four to eight years. Even when Americans make a mistake (which we did in 2000), the ability to fix that mistake is placed in our hands relatively quickly.

I like that America and Americans generally aspire to do the right thing, even thought they (like any country) obviously can't achieve that goal. Most of all, I like where I work, I like the city in which I live, I like walking in the door and seeing my wife and kids, I like having a beer with neighbors on the deck, and I like where I rest my head at night. I choose not to give George Bush the power to affect what matters to me most.

Hey, I too will trade - but not a mix :-) I've got My Morning Jacket's "It Still Moves" (great group - playing at Lebowskifest this year) and The Ass Ponys "Lohio" (out of print) which I will, errr, share. It's my way of promoting local artists.

And my way of saying "I *heart* y'all".

I like the fact that pardon me pretty much summed it all up for me. Nice post pm.

pardon me, that is a really nice summation of your feelings. I wish I felt the same way.

Sadly, GW *is* affecting what matters to me most, and ironically, that's my family and loved ones.

I believe I've passed the age of consciousness and righteous rage
I found that just surviving was a noble fight.
I once believed in causes too,
I had my pointless point of view,
And life went on no matter who was wrong or right.

Ah, Billy Joel, genius philosopher. How silly I've been! I'm so glad that he's shown me the error of my ways.

I'll take one. And trade you one.

Two, if I ever manage to send out the previous mix CD.

/me senses a little sarcasm from cowboy_sally's secret identity.

There is no cowboy_sally! Only ZOOL!

/me idly wonders what a pairing of ZOOL and Zod would produce.

/me idly wonders what a pairing of ZOOL and Zod would produce.

Probably another Rumsfeld.

Dana, I'm in your camp, babe.

Let's zip these sleeping bags together.

Best image I've had all day.

Ah, Billy Joel, genius philosopher. How silly I've been! I'm so glad that he's shown me the error of my ways

Billy Joel may be uncool in the eyes of some, and the sentiment may be unexciting, but it dosen't negate the essential truth: if every zealot of any stripe, including the anti-zealot zealots gave up their zealotry, the world would be a much better place.

I just came home from eating ribs, cornbread, red beans and rice, greens, shrimp and crawdads - and listening to swamp music.

The world, at least the corner of the world where I'm sitting right this minute, could not be a better place. Lucky me.

I've discovered that I'm only truly happy when I'm feeling depressed, anxious or perscuted.

Tell me some bad news, scare me, and give me a hard time, please.

Hmph. Read the news.

Jon, honestly, with Iraq completely FUBAR and Bush telling Rummy that he's "doing a superb job" - if that isn't bad news... then I don't know what is.

I don't know how anyone can be anything other than horrified, unless they're brain dead.

Sorry, I guess my swamp music happiness wore off.

I missed your kind comments above, Fes and Jon.
Much thanks, and of course I'll sign you a copy for 5 bucks. That's 40% off, but the offer is only on during september, so don't dilly dally.

Romakimmy, I'm sure Amazon will take a check. Or you can send me nude photos and I'll send a text file. Dong resin inc. prides itself on being a reasonable enterprise.

We do, however, test on animals.

I was talking last night about the war to guy I know. This guy ordinarily is one of the nices most thoughtful guys you'd ever want to meet. When the subject of the POW pictures came up, his response was "So what. They all fuckin' hate us anyway."

I don't like that shit like this goes on, but it's happened in every war, on every side since the beginning of time. Look at footage from POW camps in world war II, or better yet talk to a POW. Did you honestly think ugly shit wasn't going to happen in this war? Remember that GI in that copter that went down in Somalia? or even that a war can be fought without shit like this happening? As callous as it was, what my freind says points up a truth of peoples perceptions of this situation. When a lot of Americans see an Arab, they see Mohammed Atta, when a lot of Arabs see an American they see a heathen infidel imperialist. 'Twas ever thus sadly.

You could say that we shouldn't be in Iraq in the first place, and I'd say you're probably right. But terrorism is real. 9/11 and Madrid and shit like that happen, and the people who perpetrate it need to be dealt with and taken out of circulation. All the wishful thinking in the world isn't gonna make that go away.

Maybe that makes me brain dead. Or blood thirsty. or whatever. But, I'm sorry that's the way I feel about it.

Mr. Crash Davis is right.

No country seems perfect for me, except their women; an uninhabited island would do.

Couple things, Jon:

--Iraq didn't have anything to do with 9/11 or Madrid. No link. No evidence. No contacts. Yeah, the Administration started looking for ways to hit Iraq as early as 2:40 in the afternoon of 9/11...but that doesn't exactly bespeak a reasoned, thoughtful response, does it? It says something more like "let's hit the guy who tried to kill my dad. Let's remake the Middle East. Let's go after a place with lots of oil." Most of the hijackers (not to mention Osama himself) are from Saudi. You don't see us going after Riyadh, do you? (Not that we should, but still.)

I was a supporter of the attacks on Afghanistan to remove the Taliban from power. (Though I had real problems with the way that war was and is being prosecuted...not to mention the complete lack of follow-through on our objectives, which is a Bush Administration hallmark.)

--Yes, this shit happens in every war. It's part of the darker side of human nature that emerges when you take people who are trained killing machines and tell them to, uh, not kill.

But this problem isn't just that this abuse happened. It's that this abuse seems to have been ordered or at least condoned by those in posititions of real power and authority. It's systemic. And don't forget that the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and presumably the SecDef, knew about the abuses and didn't tell Congress or the President. Bad judgment or incompetence, heads need to roll, and not just those of corporals and sergeants.

"They all fuckin' hate us anyway."

Y'know, after the dog's breakfast that has been the past six months or so in Iraq, I can't say I'd blame them. Most Iraqis -- ordinary people, not Ba'ath party honchos -- haven't seen an improvement in their lives. Sure, the secret police have gone, but the Americans are there, shutting down independent newspapers and broadcasting propaganda, oh, and torturing people who happen to find themselves in prison. (And I'm wondering why these people are in prison anyway. Are they POWs? Ordinary criminals? Arbitrary detainees a la Jose Padilla?) The electric, water, transportation, and sewage systems are all a joke, and have been ever since the invasion. Some of it is due to the Iraqi army's scorched-earth policies, some is due to American destruction. But the plain truth of the matter is that most Iraqis' lives aren't any better under the American occupation than they were under Saddam, and some Iraqis' lives are a good deal worse.

We were led into this war on a lie. There were no weapons of mass destruction, despite the supposedly ironclad evidence that pointed to them. American troops, and soldiers from our allies, are dying every day because of the Administration's obstinance and foolhardiness. We may have taken over the nation, but we have completely failed at nation-building. Democracy is no closer to Iraq than it was under Saddam. There's no plan regarding the "transfer of sovereignty" on June 30 -- we're gonna hand over power, by gum, but we're not going to leave and we don't know who we're going to hand power to. We've appointed an ambassador to Iraq who is perhaps best known for arming the contras during the Reagan Administration and ignoring the massive human rights problems in Latin America during his tenure there. There is no Iraqi police to speak of, but the militias roam the streets. We've spent at least $113 billion on this war with no end in sight.

Sorry for the verborrhea, but this is the kind of thing thtat really pisses me off. (And Jon -- no one here is saying you're "brain-dead" or "bloodthirsty." No need to get defensive.)

/me notes that there are still two more mix cds on the table for whomever wants them.

vidiot:

I realize all that. I also realize that the whole Iraq thing made the situation worse.

Dosen't negate the fact that we could pull out of Iraq tommorrow, or even never gone in and 9/11 still remains unavenged, and we'd still have a terrorist problem to deal with.

I've heard a lot of talk about what we shouldn't have done, and what we shouldn't do but precious little about what we should do, beyond platitudes and smart-alecky I-told-you-so's. This can only lead me to believe that people think we should do nothing apparently. Which I cannot abide. First, it's unconscionable to me to accept the violent deaths of 3000 innocent people and two, the purely strategic reason that it sends the message that you can murder Americans and get away with it. And yes, I believe the solution will involve the military and violence. Sad, but it's neccessary. Sometimes it's like the whole world just did a collective, "ooh, war. Icky."

I wholeheartedly agree that the Bush response to this situation has been a dismal failure. But nobody's come up with anything else, either. And if I sound defensive, it's because I've been saying the same stuff I said here and asking the same questions for the past two years online and off and still getting no satisfactory answers or worse being villified or mocked for it.

My problem is not with violence and war per se, though my enthusiasm for it is nowhere near the current administration's. My problem is with stupid violence and preemptive war against people who didn't have anything to do with our problems. As I noted above, I think rooting out the Taliban was a good idea, because it did major operational damage to al-Qaeda. And I think we could be doing more to find bin Laden.

I don't think we should do nothing. This is a straw man you're constructing here. No rational person simply accepts 3,000 deaths. No one is saying that we shouldn't do anything. But the administration's activities in the Middle East aren't helping, and there's a fair argument that they're making the problem worse and creating future terrorists, which is something we do not need.

What should we do? I genuinely don't know. I guess that means I'm part of the problem, then.

I've heard a lot of talk about what we shouldn't have done, and what we shouldn't do but precious little about what we should do, beyond platitudes and smart-alecky I-told-you-so's.

The "I-told-you-so's" are pretty much a way of saying, "You made this mess, we knew that there wouldn't be a solution, we told you not to go in there, YOU clean it up." I don't have a solution and even if I did, I'm not the type that our current Administration would lend an ear to.

Vidiot: "I was a supporter of the attacks on Afghanistan to remove the Taliban from power. "

Jon: "Sometimes it's like the whole world just did a collective, 'ooh, war. Icky.'"

I supported the war in Afghanistan too. And what is this "Icky" shit? War is the last resort and, as far as the Taliban and AQ were concerned, the only possible option. To imply that the world got squeamish because they didn't want to follow our Vindictive Leader into Iraq is ridiculous and kind of insulting.

Jon: "I wholeheartedly agree that the Bush response to this situation has been a dismal failure. But nobody's come up with anything else, either."

As far as what? We should have more forces in Afghanistan. We own the borders around Pakistan. We should be taking a long hard look at the Saudis. I've heard a million fucking options that are better than this war.

Jon: "This can only lead me to believe that people think we should do nothing apparently. Which I cannot abide. First, it's unconscionable to me to accept the violent deaths of 3000 innocent people and two, the purely strategic reason that it sends the message that you can murder Americans and get away with it."

So then fuck it, let's just bomb the entire Eastern Hemisphere. That'll get our enemies and teach the EU to jump when we tell them to. They're all dirty foriengers anyway. Who cares who's responsible? Let's just kill somebody.

Boys, BOYS! Last time I checked, the background color here wasn't blue.

Now, all of you, say you're sorry, french a little, and be friends again.

*flings poo*

Honestly if you would like clearing your mind of these troubling times. Follow the ways of walrus. Nothing better than sitting on a pacific paradise beach watching the day's lovely waves. There is no black & white just the beautiful colors life offers all.

Let's all just get togther as one and buy my book.

Jay Sherman, 'zat you?

So then fuck it, let's just bomb the entire Eastern Hemisphere. That'll get our enemies and teach the EU to jump when we tell them to. They're all dirty foriengers anyway

Now, who's constructing strawmen, eyeballkid.

No one is saying that we shouldn't do anything.

Maybe you two aren't, but plenty of people opposed going into Afghanistan and plenty of people I've talked to IRL and at MeFi and other places seem to be against any military engagement with terrorists whatsoever, which is suicidally unrealistic.

I've heard a million fucking options that are better than this war.

I sure as hell haven't.

I've stated numerous times that I was against and remain against the war in Iraq, but that does not mean I'm against the war on terrorism. I just want it done right.

And Bush has used the war and terrorism to push his shitty domestic agenda, and anti-war movement is usiong it to push theirs.

If they truly want to stop the war in Iraq they better come up with some clear alternative solutions to the problem and stop muddying the waters with bullshit.

I'm sorry if that's an unpopular sentiment, but it's where I stand.

*deep breath*

point taken, fes. qand I've never let politics get in the way of freindship, at least not here. I just had to say my peice and vent my frustration.

Boys, BOYS! Last time I checked, the background color here wasn't blue.

You must be one of the conflict avoidin' wussie Liberals I keep hearing about.

If they truly want to stop the war in Iraq they better come up with some clear alternative solutions to the problem and stop muddying the waters with bullshit.

At this point it seems that Iraq was never a solution to any problem that had anything to do with the United States. The problem, as far as 9/11 is concerned, is domestic. The US government interfered in the Isreal/Palestine conflict (among other things) and pissed off militant extremists, while our country was inadequately prepared for a terrorist attack.

Now, instead of preparing for the next terrorist attack, we've gone of on more wars of aggression and created more ill-will and spawned more terrorists. And we've bankrupted our country, morally and financially, in the process.

Ideally, my government ought to do three things - educate children, maintain infrastructure, and defend our borders. Controlling recreational drugs, controlling women's reproductive health, invading foreign countries - hey, fuck the fuck out of it. Spend all those billions making us the best country we can be. Invest in science, education, roads, parks, the environment. Why is that not obvious?

I love this monkey house, and I don't want it to be a place that's too serious, or where conflicts arise. But it's a community, an international community, and just about the only chance I have to say, "Hey, world, please forgive us for the wrong things that are being done in our name. We're truly not that kind of people."

*turns on the blender to make banana daquiris for everyone*

I'm sorry if that's an unpopular sentiment, but that's where I stand.

Do I detect the smell of burning martyr here? It's not an unpopular sentiment. Sorry to blow away your detente, Fes, but I'm venting my frustrations as well. Jon -- why do you always assume that no one shares your beliefs? To hear you talk, you're always the lone voice of sanity in a world gone mad which is persecuting you for your unpopular, radical stance. Not that you're not a voice of sanity...I genuinely agree with you most of the time. But I think making your arguments in this fashion waters down what you have to say.

And on posting, yes, this is the kind of stuff that belongs on the blue and not here. Apologies.

(And more apologies.)

Romakimmy, I'm sure Amazon will take a check. Or you can send me nude photos and I'll send a text file. Dong resin inc. prides itself on being a reasonable enterprise.

Check your email, dong.

uh, I wrote a book, too.

*visits Project Gutenberg, does "search and replace."*

I hate you, dong resin.

unfortunately, dong, the nude photos romakimmy sent were of me. You should be more specific with your requests.

But you should be grateful, too. Those heels hurt, honey.

Dammit. I. Just. Can't. Do. It.

Dong, babe, vague solicitations for nude photos 9 times out of 10 will get you some nasty horror that most likely results in exclaimations of "Jesus H. Christ those things look like two ziplock baggies full of milk!" or "That is one nasty prolapse."

That 10th time is my conscience kicking in. Or maybe just the need for a glass of wine or three.

I don't hate you as much now, dong resin.

I left it open on purpose, you dolts.

I was hoping for stuff like this.

oh my!

Oh, that was bad. That was bad, bad, bad.

I was just riding in the elevator here at work, and I overheard some people from the media company downstairs discussing a program they described as "a cross between CSI and Antiques Roadshow"

My head jerked up and I said, "You mean selling old evidence. Like Hitler's pencil box?"

"Precisely," a Brit accent answered, "PBS, in June."

The world keeps making less and less sense.

Be still my beating heart. My offerings pale in comparision to the smegma encrusted star which is Dong Resin, but I give you

For Dong with Love

(NSFW. Duh.)

Man, them authors get all the chicks.

Frog girl and I are gonna get a house togther and watch Jon's show.

Surprisingly, no one has yet noted that The Yank Monkeys would be an awesome name for a rock band.

What the hell's that got to do with my book?

If you buy three, you're elegible for FREE Super Saver Shipping.

El-igi-ble.

There's a word in there somewhere, by god.

You know what I've always wanted to see?
G. Gordon Liddy on Wheel Of Fortune.

I still haven't seen it and time's running out.

But tomorrow, Aaron Brown faces off against Ari Fleischer on Jeopardy.

Possibly better.

Yeah, you've heard of "the banality of evil?"

Tomorrow will be Banality Vs. Evil.

I look forward to reading dong's book and, after I've read it, for the hell of it, I'll underline the stuff that doesn't sound like him and wager it was that other guy wot suggested it.

It's a well known fact that steadfast supporters of the invasion of Iraq make the most loyal friends. ;)

eyeballkid, I will take one of those mix cd's, please. You do fine mixes, sir, and I do need me another one, thank you very much.

What, was this thread supposed to be about something else?

Oh yeah, dong's book. Congrats, dong; watch out for Bill Clinton on the book tours. I betcha he'd short-sheet your bed if he got a chance.

Or be waiting for you there.

Well, there's a mental image we'll be trying to clean out with a fondue fork shoved in my ear hooked up to a car battery.

Thanks, all.

That's four cds, one more still left... get it while it's hot.

That's four cds, one more still left... get it while it's hot.

Are lurkers eligible?

That's four cds, one more still left... get it while it's hot.

Are lurkers eligible?

That's four cds, one more still left... get it while it's hot.

Are lurkers eligible?

test

test

That's four cds, one more still left... get it while it's hot.

are lurkers eligible?

crap, I'm so sorry about the multiple posts... i kept getting an error so i would go back and repost

"Are lurkers eligible?"

No.

"Are lurkers eligible?"

No.

"Are lurkers eligible?"

NO.

"are lurkers eligible?"

ALL RIGHT, ALL RIGHT, YOU WIN. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, JUST MAKE IT STOP!

Hey, EBK! I'm just about to send out a few mixes and would love to trade with you. Your Autumn mix was on permanent rotation for a while. Not so much now, since it is Spring and all, which is why we should swap.

I want me a mix, ebk.

May I be of assistance?

If the Swapinistrator did not exist, we would have to invent him. If we did not exist, the Swapinistrator would not care.

I'm down to -2 cds now. ;)

And just for Brittney, I'll call it "Spring"

Emails forthcoming me monkey friends.

A few things:

1. I would like a disc, Mr. Ball. I am aware that you have already gotten five respondents, but I am in possession of some serious juju, so you'd best pony up. I also am not sure what juju is, so you'd really be taking your chances.

2. Dong, sincere congrats on the book deal. I'd say it couldn't happen to a nicer guy but, you know, Tom Poston and all.

3. I don't think I have a 3. Except the war is no good. That is my 3. And Bush and his cronies are dangerous. That is also my 3. And Mr. Jon, I respect your opinions expressed above, and I agree with Mr. Iot that you have a habit of couching your opinions in a way that can only lead to your feeling belittled. I think that's unfortunate.

4. E3 was fun. You may now express bitterness, Mr. Ball.

*shakes fist*

DAMN YOU KAFKA! YOU OFFER ME DODGER TICKETS, BUT NO E3 TICKETS??? WHERE'S THE LOVE? WHERE. IS. THE. LOVE?

(send me your address, we'll trade juju!)

I think juju is the active ingredient in Jujubes, but I'm not certain if it is the sweet or the sticky.

This guy'll get tired of constantly being shipped back and forth, I'd think.

kaf: fair enough. and I'm a big boy, I can take it.

The stuff about what my freind said was meant more in a "this is what people are saying" type of way. And believe me I talked to him for a good half-hour afterwards telling him some of the other factors involved, and I never disrespected his anger, and he listened to me.

The reason I brought him up is cause I think he's an illustration of what's part of the problem in coming to a solution to this crisis. Watching events like 9/11 or the tape of Nick Berg, it's extremely hard to not get angry or want to take revenge. Same thing with the Abu Ghirab pics. We're trying to get people to take a peaceful position when what we see makes us instinctually want to do the opposite. That makes it a tough sell. 'sall I'm saying.

In other news, Lemurs aren't as stupid as we thought.

Unexpectedly, the lemurs could remember sequences. For instance, they showed they could remember the order of appearance of random images by touching them in order when they reappeared as a group....But the lemurs were not especially dexterous. "While monkeys will use their fingers, the ringtails (lemurs) use their nose or mouth to touch the screen, sometimes kind of kissing it," Brannon said.

jon hit nail on the head why I had a proplem with my home town's newspaper being praised around the US last night for its front page today of Berg.

Maybe people should stop being such reactionary dumbasses and differentiate between bombing the fuck out of a whole country and hunting down terrorists? And maybe New York and America at large should wake up and realize we've been killing people by the thousands in the Middle East and were doing so long before 9-11.

Just because these things make you outraged, doesn't mean you should call for more death and atrocities to somehow make it OK. I don't believe it's an innate instinct of mankind. I think it's societal and it's taught. It's how dumb, bigoted asssholes raise their children. That's why we have these problems.

Yeah, just because al-Qaeda was behind the 9/11 attacks doesn't mean we should attack Iraq. There's no connection. Sure, we're angry, and justifiably so. But let's focus on the ball here, and channel our anger toward those responsible for it.

That, and there's a difference between justice and vengeance.

uh just to clarify wrt the responsibility thing. we are responsible for what our government does because we live in a democracy. the saudi people aren't responsible for theirs because they don't. the iraqis, no. and definitely nobody but al queda is responsible for al queda - the same way we aren't responsible for timothy mcveigh.
So... to recap:

In a Democracy citizens are responsible for their government. We don't just get to reap the rewards of unfettered aggression and then claim that it was 'bush and co.' we are responsible for what people do in our name, because we elect those people to do stuff in our name.

Again, I know that Iraq wasn't responsible for 9/11.

What I was trying to say is that when you read about something like the Berg beheading or 9/11 or Daniel Pearl and it's hard not be enraged and wanna hurt somebody. I'm not saying it's a good way to be. Maybe that means I'm a bigoted, reactionary asshole. I don't know. But that's the wall you're up against when you argue against the war.

Couldn't we just deny them fudge?
Like, we carefully explain the concept of fudge, maybe toss out a sample or two, then remove all hope of their having fudge, ever.

I'm not saying it's a solution, just that it would be sort of fun to do.

Man, I wasn't calling you names. I was talking about the state of mind of a lot of people in this country and why they react the way they do. Taking everything personally is a lot of work. Give yourself a break.

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